ghormenghast (![[info]](http://l-stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif){kind=small} ghormenghast) wrote,@ 2009-03-07 18:48:00 |
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Thoughts on Religion, Part 3 of 3
Welcome to Part 3. The last part of this rambling narrative, or 'Nick-erview' as I've been referring to it. lol
The note that prompted all of this discussion was a post by Nick where he expressed concern about what he saw as some sinister trends in our society and the need to take action against them. Basically, Nick was worried that President Obama is leading this country into being a neo-Nazi state, he cited 3 specific examples... a purported 500% tax on guns and ammo, religious discrimination, and 'designer babies' (eugenics) in a time of financial turmoil. he saw parallels to the rise of Nazism in 1930's Germany. Ok, fair enough.
I have no doubt that Nick is being sincere in his concerns, but I saw some flaws in the argument, and posted accordingly. I'm not gonna rehash it all here, but I want to bring it up again and summarize briefly before I close this thing by talking about homosexuality and sin in general.
500% gun tax - It's an urban myth which is being propgated by right-wing and pro-gun websites. It isn't true. Factcheck.org has debunked all these NRA propaganda points. I'm not gonna rehash them here. Go to factcheck.org and type in 'obama gun tax' and read the articles.
However, this does bring up something that I want to discuss. That is, how the echo chamber of faith can lead to the silliest of ideas being uncritically repeated by thousands or millions of people.This is not unique to the right wing or Christianity, by any means, but really bothers me a bit.
<
Welcome to Part 3. The last part of this rambling narrative, or 'Nick-erview' as I've been referring to it. lol
The note that prompted all of this discussion was a post by Nick where he expressed concern about what he saw as some sinister trends in our society and the need to take action against them. Basically, Nick was worried that President Obama is leading this country into being a neo-Nazi state, he cited 3 specific examples... a purported 500% tax on guns and ammo, religious discrimination, and 'designer babies' (eugenics) in a time of financial turmoil. he saw parallels to the rise of Nazism in 1930's Germany. Ok, fair enough.
I have no doubt that Nick is being sincere in his concerns, but I saw some flaws in the argument, and posted accordingly. I'm not gonna rehash it all here, but I want to bring it up again and summarize briefly before I close this thing by talking about homosexuality and sin in general.
500% gun tax - It's an urban myth which is being propgated by right-wing and pro-gun websites. It isn't true. Factcheck.org has debunked all these NRA propaganda points. I'm not gonna rehash them here. Go to factcheck.org and type in 'obama gun tax' and read the articles.
However, this does bring up something that I want to discuss. That is, how the echo chamber of faith can lead to the silliest of ideas being uncritically repeated by thousands or millions of people.This is not unique to the right wing or Christianity, by any means, but really bothers me a bit.
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Welcome to Part 3. The last part of this rambling narrative, or 'Nick-erview' as I've been referring to it. lol
The note that prompted all of this discussion was a post by Nick where he expressed concern about what he saw as some sinister trends in our society and the need to take action against them. Basically, Nick was worried that President Obama is leading this country into being a neo-Nazi state, he cited 3 specific examples... a purported 500% tax on guns and ammo, religious discrimination, and 'designer babies' (eugenics) in a time of financial turmoil. he saw parallels to the rise of Nazism in 1930's Germany. Ok, fair enough.
I have no doubt that Nick is being sincere in his concerns, but I saw some flaws in the argument, and posted accordingly. I'm not gonna rehash it all here, but I want to bring it up again and summarize briefly before I close this thing by talking about homosexuality and sin in general.
500% gun tax - It's an urban myth which is being propgated by right-wing and pro-gun websites. It isn't true. Factcheck.org has debunked all these NRA propaganda points. I'm not gonna rehash them here. Go to factcheck.org and type in 'obama gun tax' and read the articles.
However, this does bring up something that I want to discuss. That is, how the echo chamber of faith can lead to the silliest of ideas being uncritically repeated by thousands or millions of people.This is not unique to the right wing or Christianity, by any means, but really bothers me a bit.
<<Nick said: "I checked on the gun tax thing so I took down my note so an not to promote sensationalism. My point was not in to condemn anyone and I hope my responses were not too ignorant.">>
Nick, having known and even worked with you at OU, I don't think you're an ignorant person. But when someone tells you something like this, something that makes you angry or upset, I think it pays to actually look into it yourself. It took me less than 5 minutes to debunk the 500% gun tax, you could have done so just as quickly. As it happens, this was just one of a number of memes that emerged during the presidential campaign from the right-wing as an attempt to smear Obama as anti-2nd amendment.
There is a human tendency to want to believe what their like-minded friends and acquaintances say. In a situation where people are encouraged to simply believe things without question, like in a church, this is amplified. How many people do you know who still believe that Obama is a secret Muslim, or that he was actually born in Kenya? These are things being floated around that thousands of people believe, with no evidence whatsoever despite them have been proven to be utterly false. Still, people repeat them uncritically. This is a pet peeve of mine now, and was a pet peeve of mine in 1979, when my church was uncritically claiming that fossil footprints in the Paluxy River in Texas "proved" that humans and dinosaurs lived together. This despite the fact that the 'evidence' had been utterly disproved in 1969 and the Creationists ADMITTED it! So 10 years later, the church was still repeating this LIE, knowing full well it wasn't true. Perhaps they still do. This is what I mean when I say "ALWAYS question authority"
-- Religious Persecution: I'm not sure what it is about the religious right in this country and their feelings of being persecuted, but it's certainly without merit. Christians control our government. From the White House on down to local school boards, Christians control most of the political agenda in this country. Trust me, they're NOT being persecuted. Nobody is calling for Christianity to be banned, to prevent Christians from worshipping openly or marrying each other. Sure, we don't want the Christian creation story to be taught in our high school science classrooms, but that's not because we hate Christians, it's because it doesn't belong there! We'd feel the same in any other religion did the same.
If you want persecution, think about "Bent" and what Max and Horst went through. There's no comparison. THAT was persecution.
Now, I also know that there are some sects, ala Brother Jed or the Westboro Baptists, who go out of their way to offend people because "blessed are those who are persecuted for my sake" (Matt. 5:10-12, Luke 21:17-19) - They seek an angry response from people so that they can feel persecuted and self-righteous and claim a great victory when people fall for the tactic. Twisted, yes. Persecution? No.
-- Designer babies: This was in response to a news story about a clinic that is now offering clients a service to choose the gender, hair, eye and skin color of their children. Nick compared it to Nazi eugenics programs, and I explained the difference. I won't rehash it here.
<< Nick said: "I have an honest concern for people and especially children. I work for an upper class "Christian" (more social than legalistic) family. I have seen what this designer mentality has done. A whole generation scheduling every moment to avoid parenting and supposedly creating little Beethoven-financial-soccer-wiz-kids with perfect teeth. I am afraid you are wrong about people not taking this seriously, I think they already do.">>
OK, I see your point here, and it's a very good one. Some people do micro-manage every aspect of their kids' lives. I've seen it myself too. But it's not necessarily sinister. I don't think they're TRYING to do their children a disservice by doing this. Don't they want the best for their kids? Whether or not it IS good for their kids is open to debate.
That being said, I think the whole 'designer baby' thing is completely silly, as I stated before, but I don't think it's a first step towards creating a master race.
I'm sure it's so expensive that only a very select few will take advantage of it. As for the 'killing people' aspect of it.. Since I'm not familiar with the procedure, I can't comment. They may not destroy embryos in this process at all. (at least not any more than any other fertility clinic would) Perhaps this requires some more research.
<<Nicks asks: "The homosexuality question is a touchy one, but I would love to get your input on it being educated and gay. This issue has made sure too many people feel separated from Christ, so I cannot believe it is properly understood by anyone. But if I believe the Word, I must believe it all, not only what I want. What is your take?>>
Sorry, Nick, but I'm quite certain that you DON'T believe all of the Word. You DO pick and choose. How do I know? well, it's easy. ALL Christians do. You shave your beard, I'm pretty sure you don't exile your wife to a shed during her period, you may have at some point worn a cotton/polyester blended shirt, and maybe you've even eaten clam chowder or shrimp cocktail ...remember that eating shellfish is an abomination to God!(Lev. 11:10-12) I point you to this site: http://www.fallwell.com/selective%20quotation.html for more examples. I think my point is clear. You pick and choose what you want to believe based on your own cultural influences, convictions and prejudices. Period. I don't think there's ANYONE in modern America who really believes the entire Bible completely and lives by it's precepts entirely. Even Brother Jed admitted to me that he doesn't believe in the doctrine that all people are born into sin.
<<Nick asks: "Men loving men not being the sin, two men having sex being the problem, do you feel God is against homosexuality any more than he is someone who is racist or someone who masturbates or someone who cheats on their spouse, ect...? Is a sin a sin?>>
As an atheist,I obviously reject the Bible's notion of 'sin'. Even so, Jesus himself never said a word about homosexuality or masturbation. There are, of course, many gay Christians who see no contradiction with being gay and Christian. They pick and choose what they believe from the Bible as well, just as you do. I don't think that cheating on one's spouse is necessarily a very nice thing to do (doesn't that kind of depend on the relationship? what about swingers?), but that has nothing to do with religion. Sorry if that's not a very satisfying answer.
That should cover all of the questions :) Ask more if you like.</lj-cut>
Welcome to Part 3. The last part of this rambling narrative, or 'Nick-erview' as I've been referring to it. lol
The note that prompted all of this discussion was a post by Nick where he expressed concern about what he saw as some sinister trends in our society and the need to take action against them. Basically, Nick was worried that President Obama is leading this country into being a neo-Nazi state, he cited 3 specific examples... a purported 500% tax on guns and ammo, religious discrimination, and 'designer babies' (eugenics) in a time of financial turmoil. he saw parallels to the rise of Nazism in 1930's Germany. Ok, fair enough.
I have no doubt that Nick is being sincere in his concerns, but I saw some flaws in the argument, and posted accordingly. I'm not gonna rehash it all here, but I want to bring it up again and summarize briefly before I close this thing by talking about homosexuality and sin in general.
500% gun tax - It's an urban myth which is being propgated by right-wing and pro-gun websites. It isn't true. Factcheck.org has debunked all these NRA propaganda points. I'm not gonna rehash them here. Go to factcheck.org and type in 'obama gun tax' and read the articles.
However, this does bring up something that I want to discuss. That is, how the echo chamber of faith can lead to the silliest of ideas being uncritically repeated by thousands or millions of people.This is not unique to the right wing or Christianity, by any means, but really bothers me a bit.
<<Nick said: "I checked on the gun tax thing so I took down my note so an not to promote sensationalism. My point was not in to condemn anyone and I hope my responses were not too ignorant.">>
Nick, having known and even worked with you at OU, I don't think you're an ignorant person. But when someone tells you something like this, something that makes you angry or upset, I think it pays to actually look into it yourself. It took me less than 5 minutes to debunk the 500% gun tax, you could have done so just as quickly. As it happens, this was just one of a number of memes that emerged during the presidential campaign from the right-wing as an attempt to smear Obama as anti-2nd amendment.
There is a human tendency to want to believe what their like-minded friends and acquaintances say. In a situation where people are encouraged to simply believe things without question, like in a church, this is amplified. How many people do you know who still believe that Obama is a secret Muslim, or that he was actually born in Kenya? These are things being floated around that thousands of people believe, with no evidence whatsoever despite them have been proven to be utterly false. Still, people repeat them uncritically. This is a pet peeve of mine now, and was a pet peeve of mine in 1979, when my church was uncritically claiming that fossil footprints in the Paluxy River in Texas "proved" that humans and dinosaurs lived together. This despite the fact that the 'evidence' had been utterly disproved in 1969 and the Creationists ADMITTED it! So 10 years later, the church was still repeating this LIE, knowing full well it wasn't true. Perhaps they still do. This is what I mean when I say "ALWAYS question authority"
-- Religious Persecution: I'm not sure what it is about the religious right in this country and their feelings of being persecuted, but it's certainly without merit. Christians control our government. From the White House on down to local school boards, Christians control most of the political agenda in this country. Trust me, they're NOT being persecuted. Nobody is calling for Christianity to be banned, to prevent Christians from worshipping openly or marrying each other. Sure, we don't want the Christian creation story to be taught in our high school science classrooms, but that's not because we hate Christians, it's because it doesn't belong there! We'd feel the same in any other religion did the same.
If you want persecution, think about "Bent" and what Max and Horst went through. There's no comparison. THAT was persecution.
Now, I also know that there are some sects, ala Brother Jed or the Westboro Baptists, who go out of their way to offend people because "blessed are those who are persecuted for my sake" (Matt. 5:10-12, Luke 21:17-19) - They seek an angry response from people so that they can feel persecuted and self-righteous and claim a great victory when people fall for the tactic. Twisted, yes. Persecution? No.
-- Designer babies: This was in response to a news story about a clinic that is now offering clients a service to choose the gender, hair, eye and skin color of their children. Nick compared it to Nazi eugenics programs, and I explained the difference. I won't rehash it here.
<< Nick said: "I have an honest concern for people and especially children. I work for an upper class "Christian" (more social than legalistic) family. I have seen what this designer mentality has done. A whole generation scheduling every moment to avoid parenting and supposedly creating little Beethoven-financial-soccer-wiz-kids with perfect teeth. I am afraid you are wrong about people not taking this seriously, I think they already do.">>
OK, I see your point here, and it's a very good one. Some people do micro-manage every aspect of their kids' lives. I've seen it myself too. But it's not necessarily sinister. I don't think they're TRYING to do their children a disservice by doing this. Don't they want the best for their kids? Whether or not it IS good for their kids is open to debate.
That being said, I think the whole 'designer baby' thing is completely silly, as I stated before, but I don't think it's a first step towards creating a master race.
I'm sure it's so expensive that only a very select few will take advantage of it. As for the 'killing people' aspect of it.. Since I'm not familiar with the procedure, I can't comment. They may not destroy embryos in this process at all. (at least not any more than any other fertility clinic would) Perhaps this requires some more research.
<<Nicks asks: "The homosexuality question is a touchy one, but I would love to get your input on it being educated and gay. This issue has made sure too many people feel separated from Christ, so I cannot believe it is properly understood by anyone. But if I believe the Word, I must believe it all, not only what I want. What is your take?>>
Sorry, Nick, but I'm quite certain that you DON'T believe all of the Word. You DO pick and choose. How do I know? well, it's easy. ALL Christians do. You shave your beard, I'm pretty sure you don't exile your wife to a shed during her period, you may have at some point worn a cotton/polyester blended shirt, and maybe you've even eaten clam chowder or shrimp cocktail ...remember that eating shellfish is an abomination to God!(Lev. 11:10-12) I point you to this site: http://www.fallwell.com/selective%20quotation.html for more examples. I think my point is clear. You pick and choose what you want to believe based on your own cultural influences, convictions and prejudices. Period. I don't think there's ANYONE in modern America who really believes the entire Bible completely and lives by it's precepts entirely. Even Brother Jed admitted to me that he doesn't believe in the doctrine that all people are born into sin.
<<Nick asks: "Men loving men not being the sin, two men having sex being the problem, do you feel God is against homosexuality any more than he is someone who is racist or someone who masturbates or someone who cheats on their spouse, ect...? Is a sin a sin?>>
As an atheist,I obviously reject the Bible's notion of 'sin'. Even so, Jesus himself never said a word about homosexuality or masturbation. There are, of course, many gay Christians who see no contradiction with being gay and Christian. They pick and choose what they believe from the Bible as well, just as you do. I don't think that cheating on one's spouse is necessarily a very nice thing to do (doesn't that kind of depend on the relationship? what about swingers?), but that has nothing to do with religion. Sorry if that's not a very satisfying answer.
That should cover all of the questions :) Ask more if you like.</lj-cut>
