| ghormenghast ( @ 2009-03-07 16:36:00 |
Thought of Religion Part 2 of 3
Welcome to Part 2. In Part 1, I wrote a little about my time as a Christian and my journey out of that mindset and brought you to where I am today. This time, I'm going to address some of Nick's questions directly. First with some more general questions and then regarding some specific issues:
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Welcome to Part 2. In Part 1, I wrote a little about my time as a Christian and my journey out of that mindset and brought you to where I am today. This time, I'm going to address some of Nick's questions directly. First with some more general questions and then regarding some specific issues:
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<lj-cut text="No dragons behind the cut">
Welcome to Part 2. In Part 1, I wrote a little about my time as a Christian and my journey out of that mindset and brought you to where I am today. This time, I'm going to address some of Nick's questions directly. First with some more general questions and then regarding some specific issues:
<<Nick asks - "When you were a practicing Christian, did you feel you had a personal relationship with God? One in which you actually felt His guidance and presence?">>
Put simply, yes. At least I imagined so. But "feelings" are generally an unreliable measure of anything. Religion is inherently emotional, which is why religious disagreements so often turn nasty. My pastor often spoke of 'feeling god's presence' in our fellowship and study sessions. Feelings of closeness and well-being, even giddiness. But if that's the case, I have 'felt gods presence' in theatre rehearsals, hiking with my best friend, and in fraternity rituals. Feeling good in the company of like-minded people doesn't equal a supernatural presence. So while I certainly felt so then, I seriously doubt it now.
<<Nick asks - "Is your problem or disagreement with God or with the religion itself? I guess I means, do you believe in God and just not like him? Or is it those the devil has used to warp His truth into something hurtful?">>
Disliking God is kind of a non-issue. I don't. It wouldn't make sense. I don't particularly care for the Easter Bunny, but it doesn't really matter because it's just a fictional character. The Christian God falls into that same category for me, just as Vishnu or Odin or Zeus would fall in that category for you.
Perhaps you can understand atheism more easily by relating to it in this way. When it comes to any religion other than Christianity, you are an atheist. So we're actually not so different. The main difference is that I feel that way about ALL religions, and you feel that way about all of them but one.
The actions of your Gods' followers is quite another issue. Mean people suck, and Mean People For Jesus are no exception. Nice people are nice, and Nice People For Jesus are no exception. I need to get off this subject before I start singing "People are people" by Depeche Mode.
<<Nick asks - "Since you have read your bible, what you think it says a Christian should be? Do you think there is anything wrong with that?">>
Honestly, I think I'm the wrong person to answer that. Obviously that's a complex question, and entire denominations are defined by differences in opinion of what a good Christian should be. If you ask this question of a Roman Catholic, a Southern Baptist, or a member of the Westboro Kansas Baptist Church (home of the God Hates Fags idiots), you're gonna get some very different interpretations. Because the Bible is often contradictory on the subject, every denomination picks and chooses what they feel is most important. Me, I don't really care. But I do sometimes see people (Like Bono from U2) going out and trying to behave in a way that is christlike and facing scorn from fellow Christians,"Just who does he think he is, Jesus??"
Do I see anything wrong with *being* a Christian? Well, I certainly see no reason for being one, but if you feel you're getting something positive from it, I don't have any problem with it, so long as it's understood that your religious freedom ends where my nose begins.
<<Nick asks - "One last one (not asking for details or trying to be nosy), was it one big incident that made you lose your faith or many small ones. If this is too personal a question I apologize.>>
Hey, no problem, man. I'm happy to answer. Part of this was covered in Part 1. The answer, put concisely, is the latter. But I will add come commentary here.
Converting to a faith is primarily an emotional descision. People convert for a variety of reasons (loneliness, curiousity, needing a support mechanism, just liking the people they encounter from that religion, or maybe just a strong interest in the tradition that they were born into), Sometimes there's a incident or a circumstance that prompts it, like 9/11. Anyone who has been part of a congregation knows people who are profoundly damaged and join to keep from feeling alone and isolated.
For me, it was part curiosity, and part that I knew and liked people in that church, and sort of a general interest in learning about it.
Once a convert is made, the challenge to a church is not only to keep them there, but also to have them go out and convert others for the glory of their god. (obviously this wouldn't apply to a religion like Shinto or Buddhism that doesn't prosthelytize) - This is done through a combination of fellowship and doctrine. What I began to perceive over the years was a combination of emotional manipulation, intimidation and outright lying. This is often very low key and subtle. "Joe is having some problems, he's mentioned that he is reading about evolution. We're worried that he is backsliding, you're Joe's friends, could you please talk to him?" - things of that nature.
So people are kept 'in the fold' by rewarding 'good' behavior (with fellowship and support) and punishing 'bad' behavior. ('if you believe in evolution/are gay you are not a true Christian, and we can't be your friends anymore.'). Peer pressure and subtle intimidation are extremely common.
For a person who NEEDS a feeling of belonging and has grown very attached to the group, this is highly effective. They are conditioned to not make waves, to not stand out, to be good little sheep. Life is EASY when you let people do your thinking for you, so a lot of people fall into this trap.
Then there's people like me, who constantly question why things are the way they are. Church leaders hate people like me. We make their jobs harder. Let's face it, they hate to explain their beliefs to skeptics. This is why they insist that we only have Christian friends and we should all break our Pink Floyd records and only listen to godly music. It makes their job a lot easier if we're wrapped in a cocoon of their influence.
As I progressed through my faith journey, I picked up on these things. I saw it happening! Sometimes little incidents of intimidation, sometimes outright lies being taught, and over it all, the sense that I shouldn't ask questions. I was told that in matters of doctrine, pastor knows best, it's better to shut up and not make waves.
So while converting to a religion is primarily an emotional one, leaving a religion in my case was primarily an intellectual one. My faith collapsed under the sheer amount of nonsense I was expected to believe.
Wrapping up Part 2, I offer an answer to a question that hasn't asked yet:
<<"Knowing what you know now, would you have joined the church to begin with?">>
Yes, I probably would have. Going in with my eyes open, I probably wouldn't ever have become as deeply involved, but I *liked* the people in my church. I enjoyed our time we spent together, and still harbor positive feelings towards most of my friends I made there, including the church leaders. What is notable, though, is that periodically when I've run into people from my old church, it's all very pleasant until they start asking me what church I go to, etc. and I tell them that I am no longer a Christian. Then it's brrrr cold shoulder city. So much for them really being my friends, eh? How loving. How very Christian.
Coming up in Part 3 (and final), Guns, gays and designer babies! (for real this time)</lj-cut>
Welcome to Part 2. In Part 1, I wrote a little about my time as a Christian and my journey out of that mindset and brought you to where I am today. This time, I'm going to address some of Nick's questions directly. First with some more general questions and then regarding some specific issues:
<<Nick asks - "When you were a practicing Christian, did you feel you had a personal relationship with God? One in which you actually felt His guidance and presence?">>
Put simply, yes. At least I imagined so. But "feelings" are generally an unreliable measure of anything. Religion is inherently emotional, which is why religious disagreements so often turn nasty. My pastor often spoke of 'feeling god's presence' in our fellowship and study sessions. Feelings of closeness and well-being, even giddiness. But if that's the case, I have 'felt gods presence' in theatre rehearsals, hiking with my best friend, and in fraternity rituals. Feeling good in the company of like-minded people doesn't equal a supernatural presence. So while I certainly felt so then, I seriously doubt it now.
<<Nick asks - "Is your problem or disagreement with God or with the religion itself? I guess I means, do you believe in God and just not like him? Or is it those the devil has used to warp His truth into something hurtful?">>
Disliking God is kind of a non-issue. I don't. It wouldn't make sense. I don't particularly care for the Easter Bunny, but it doesn't really matter because it's just a fictional character. The Christian God falls into that same category for me, just as Vishnu or Odin or Zeus would fall in that category for you.
Perhaps you can understand atheism more easily by relating to it in this way. When it comes to any religion other than Christianity, you are an atheist. So we're actually not so different. The main difference is that I feel that way about ALL religions, and you feel that way about all of them but one.
The actions of your Gods' followers is quite another issue. Mean people suck, and Mean People For Jesus are no exception. Nice people are nice, and Nice People For Jesus are no exception. I need to get off this subject before I start singing "People are people" by Depeche Mode.
<<Nick asks - "Since you have read your bible, what you think it says a Christian should be? Do you think there is anything wrong with that?">>
Honestly, I think I'm the wrong person to answer that. Obviously that's a complex question, and entire denominations are defined by differences in opinion of what a good Christian should be. If you ask this question of a Roman Catholic, a Southern Baptist, or a member of the Westboro Kansas Baptist Church (home of the God Hates Fags idiots), you're gonna get some very different interpretations. Because the Bible is often contradictory on the subject, every denomination picks and chooses what they feel is most important. Me, I don't really care. But I do sometimes see people (Like Bono from U2) going out and trying to behave in a way that is christlike and facing scorn from fellow Christians,"Just who does he think he is, Jesus??"
Do I see anything wrong with *being* a Christian? Well, I certainly see no reason for being one, but if you feel you're getting something positive from it, I don't have any problem with it, so long as it's understood that your religious freedom ends where my nose begins.
<<Nick asks - "One last one (not asking for details or trying to be nosy), was it one big incident that made you lose your faith or many small ones. If this is too personal a question I apologize.>>
Hey, no problem, man. I'm happy to answer. Part of this was covered in Part 1. The answer, put concisely, is the latter. But I will add come commentary here.
Converting to a faith is primarily an emotional descision. People convert for a variety of reasons (loneliness, curiousity, needing a support mechanism, just liking the people they encounter from that religion, or maybe just a strong interest in the tradition that they were born into), Sometimes there's a incident or a circumstance that prompts it, like 9/11. Anyone who has been part of a congregation knows people who are profoundly damaged and join to keep from feeling alone and isolated.
For me, it was part curiosity, and part that I knew and liked people in that church, and sort of a general interest in learning about it.
Once a convert is made, the challenge to a church is not only to keep them there, but also to have them go out and convert others for the glory of their god. (obviously this wouldn't apply to a religion like Shinto or Buddhism that doesn't prosthelytize) - This is done through a combination of fellowship and doctrine. What I began to perceive over the years was a combination of emotional manipulation, intimidation and outright lying. This is often very low key and subtle. "Joe is having some problems, he's mentioned that he is reading about evolution. We're worried that he is backsliding, you're Joe's friends, could you please talk to him?" - things of that nature.
So people are kept 'in the fold' by rewarding 'good' behavior (with fellowship and support) and punishing 'bad' behavior. ('if you believe in evolution/are gay you are not a true Christian, and we can't be your friends anymore.'). Peer pressure and subtle intimidation are extremely common.
For a person who NEEDS a feeling of belonging and has grown very attached to the group, this is highly effective. They are conditioned to not make waves, to not stand out, to be good little sheep. Life is EASY when you let people do your thinking for you, so a lot of people fall into this trap.
Then there's people like me, who constantly question why things are the way they are. Church leaders hate people like me. We make their jobs harder. Let's face it, they hate to explain their beliefs to skeptics. This is why they insist that we only have Christian friends and we should all break our Pink Floyd records and only listen to godly music. It makes their job a lot easier if we're wrapped in a cocoon of their influence.
As I progressed through my faith journey, I picked up on these things. I saw it happening! Sometimes little incidents of intimidation, sometimes outright lies being taught, and over it all, the sense that I shouldn't ask questions. I was told that in matters of doctrine, pastor knows best, it's better to shut up and not make waves.
So while converting to a religion is primarily an emotional one, leaving a religion in my case was primarily an intellectual one. My faith collapsed under the sheer amount of nonsense I was expected to believe.
Wrapping up Part 2, I offer an answer to a question that hasn't asked yet:
<<"Knowing what you know now, would you have joined the church to begin with?">>
Yes, I probably would have. Going in with my eyes open, I probably wouldn't ever have become as deeply involved, but I *liked* the people in my church. I enjoyed our time we spent together, and still harbor positive feelings towards most of my friends I made there, including the church leaders. What is notable, though, is that periodically when I've run into people from my old church, it's all very pleasant until they start asking me what church I go to, etc. and I tell them that I am no longer a Christian. Then it's brrrr cold shoulder city. So much for them really being my friends, eh? How loving. How very Christian.
Coming up in Part 3 (and final), Guns, gays and designer babies! (for real this time)</lj-cut>